Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

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Paramvir Singh
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Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

Shooting on RED One

The RED ONE is perhaps this century's most hyped camera. So its but natural I thought lets take it for a spin on a low budget commercial. (note: whenever there is even a little bit of money, I prefer to shoot on film. I must also mention that I live pretty much a digital life, relying heavily on web 2.0, cloud computing and a paperless workflow, for those who might think I am old school. if anyone has ever studied how an image is formed in the photochemical realm, one would understand what a techno-porn it is.)

The basic things to remember about the RED ONE are:

1) The camera has an ISO rating of 320
2) The camera has a native colour temperature of 5000k
3) The camera records a 'RAW' image, uncorrected, irrespective of your settings for colour temperature and ISO. (these settings are only used for displaying the image and saved as metadata information, but the camera records its own 'RAW' uncorrected format)
4) The shutter is electronic (unlike the Thomson Grassvalley Viper, which has a mechanical shutter. Benjamin Button was shot on a Viper, so was Zodiac)

This is the official Red One checklist before you begin recording:
1) Set up desired physical configuration
2) Review operation guide (its available from the Red One Site)
3) Upload/install latest firmware
4) Perform Black Shading (details in the operations guide)
5) Verify back focus
6) Connect media
7) Setup project (4k, 2:1, 180 Shutter, ISO 320, 5600k, Redcode 36, 25fps, for example)
8) Format Media (important. every time you insert a media card, remember to format it)
9) Develop exposure methodology
10) Frame, focus, record.



My experience:
1) You need a very good and cooperative crew. I felt the camera's back focus needed alignment, but the crew was adamant about not touching back focus. They kept telling me two features had been shot without a problem, and I kept telling them that's perhaps the reason to check the back focus. Also Aalok Shukla, who was working with me on the shoot, reported the camera backup tech guy asking for extra money for a second backup!

2) Lensing: as long as you are shooting 4k, and NOT wanting to crank up, you are ok. if you want to shoot higher fps, you HAVE to scale down to 2k. That completely messes up on the lensing. The camera crops a smaller (2k) size image from the sensor. So basically you get a cropped in image out of the full frame 35mm size. See attached images for difference. The lens used is Carl Zeiss Ultra Prime 14mm. At 4k the lens gives the expected image. At 2k, it looks like a 35-50mm. So essentially, with the current build of camera, shooting at 2k means sacrificing the wide end of your lensing.

3) The EVF/On Board Monitor : Some evening shots in falling light look darker in the edit suite than they looked in the EVF/On Board Monitor. Can the monitor be trusted? I don't know.

4) Large areas out of focus have visible banding around them. Perhaps because of low bit rate. (will post this image)
Attachments
Carl Zeiss Ultra Prime 14mm Lens, on the Red One at 4k (2:1)
Carl Zeiss Ultra Prime 14mm Lens, on the Red One at 4k (2:1)
Carl Zeiss Ultra Prime 14mm Lens, on the Red One at 2k (2:1). Note how the field ofview gets limited by about half.
Carl Zeiss Ultra Prime 14mm Lens, on the Red One at 2k (2:1). Note how the field ofview gets limited by about half.
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

interesting thing is, this little fact i read in the Autodesk Post for Red workflow papers which I have posted here..

This is something I have found to be three. After all its a video camera. DO NOT EVER UNDEREXPOSE. ALSO DO NOT EVER OVEREXPOSE.
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redcurve.png
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Saihmee Dara Singh »

I was doing for a documentary being shot by a foreign crew on red one and master prime lenses...camera was rented from a local Mumbai supplier..the DOP aligned the back focus with the back focus chart everyday after finishing and before the shoot... none of my business but i asked him about it & he gave me a detailed description why it was absolutely necessary to align back focus for red one cam and also on [arri film cameras too(is it true ?) do we do it here ?]...

But i guess the DOP was foreigner so the camera attendant didn't object to any of his antics... O0
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

good point Dara. The back focus on Video cameras MUST be checked as often as possible. Actually it was more of a necessity in the earlier days of video. modern video chips and lens mounts are much better and back focus adjustments are not as frequently required.

Most modern motion picture lens mounts are hardy enough to support heavty zoom lenses and back foucs isnt so much of a problem.
Motion picture lens back focus can only be changed with shims or lens mount adjustments and should be done by a motion picture lens mechanic.

Technical Note: Back focus refers to the "focal flange length". This is the distance between the rear lens element and the CCD. In a film camera, Flange Focal Length/depth can me measured using a Flange Focal Length/depth Meter.

(i think because video cameras have smaller and perhaps somewhat weaker lens mounts and the focal plan is complex, with beam splitters etc, back focus is more of a problem in video. In the case of film cameras, the assembly behind the lens mount is much simpler)

Important reads:
Checking Back Focus
Focus Pattern Instructions
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Saihmee Dara Singh »

Some1 told me at prasad labs in mumbai they align the back focus of their Panavision cameras before every shoot. Panavision has provided them with some gear according to him..
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

yes, its best practice to do this. you need a flange focal depth meter. thats the best and most scientific way of testing and setting the back focus.
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

The Red One post workflow which we followed at a prominent post production house in mumbai was as follows:

1) Edit on Apple FCP using Red One 'proxy footage' of resolution 'H'
2) Export EDL from Apple FCP
3) We imported the Apple FCP EDL into Apple Color (we can also open the FCP timeline in Color)
4) From Color, export Red One 2k resolution Cineon frame files
5) Import Apple FCP EDL into Autodesk Smoke. Reconnect the Cineon files and assemble the edit using the EDL in Smoke.

In smoke we decided to work at native SD PAL resolution since the output will be a DigiBeta (10bit)
Note: There are many other possible workflows. This was one. Also trying connecting the Red One .r3d files directly in Autodesk Smoke using the FCP EDL.
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Aravindan.G.P. »

Heard that the RED has a lot of Back Focus issue. If i remember right, I read (in provideocoalition or somewhere) that it is a design problem and more specifically it is due to the kind of material that has been used to construct the lens mount. I admire Dara for sharing details which may not be connected to him and keeping an eye out there due to curiosity. I don't remember the last time when I had made any queries about sound on location. The service end at the Panavision is great, that's why its probably almost twice as expensive to take it out on rent.

OK...the other thing which I had wanted to ask Param is, isn't there a loss of sensor area when these master primes are used in RED. As their sensor is 16:9 there was no lens to completely cover the area while forming the image, till very recently. When we shot a Classical concert for theatrical release a year back, after cropping, the real resolution we got was 3.2 K, not 4K. Later I heard that the RED is designing even anamorphic lenses for 16:9...any thoughts?


You are correct Param...the attitude of a Smoke Artist is way different from a Colourist...I myself had a bit of that taste in the recent past...
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

Aravindan.G.P. wrote:OK...the other thing which I had wanted to ask Param is, isn't there a loss of sensor area when these master primes are used in RED. As their sensor is 16:9 there was no lens to completely cover the area while forming the image, till very recently. When we shot a Classical concert for theatrical release a year back, after cropping, the real resolution we got was 3.2 K, not 4K. Later I heard that the RED is designing even anamorphic lenses for 16:9...any thoughts?
Aaravindan, the Red One shoots on these formats:

Red One: Acqusition Formats:
  • 4K (16:9, 2:1, and Anamorphic 2:1)
    3K (16:9, 2:1, and Anamorphic 2:1)
    2K (16:9, 2:1, and Anamorphic 2:1)
The Sensor, they claim is S35 mm frame sized :
Physical Size: 24.4mm x 13.7mm (Super35mm)
(simple maths tells us its : 1.78 or 16:9)

The active pixel array is 4520 (h) x 2540 (v) which again is 1.78 or 16:9
The Red One claims a 2:1 aspect ratio as well, so we imagine some cropping is definitely happening.


If using 4-perf, the Super 35 camera aperture is 24.89 mm × 18.66 mm (0.980 in × 0.735 in), compared to the standard Academy 35 mm film size of 21.95 mm × 16.00 mm (0.864 in × 0.630 in) and thus provides 32% more image area than the standard 35-mm format. 4-perf Super 35 is simply the original frame size that was used in 35 mm silent films. That is, it is a return to the way the film stock was used before the frame size was cropped to allow room for a soundtrack.

3 Perf Super 35 has a native aspect ratio of close to 1.78:1 which is almost 16:9
image area size is : 21.95mm (w) X 13.9mm (h) [ aspect ratio: 1:1.58, which gives you more freeway for a 1.85 crop out]

the s35 and redone sensors almostthe same size and the image area covered by either is similar on 35mm lenses.
Attachments
the 3perf S35 and Red One sensor are almost the same size, hence overlap in this diagram i made
the 3perf S35 and Red One sensor are almost the same size, hence overlap in this diagram i made
aspect ratios.jpg (4.41 KiB) Viewed 9245 times
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Subbaiah Kuttappa »

some of my observations are below:

I was shooting with red prime lenses.
At 320 ASA (recomended by the red team)The grey card is not exposed properly.
1 stop under exposure reveals noise (and noise did not look like grain!!!!)
there were details in areas that were 3 1/2 stops over and in the lab things did not clip even at 4 1/2 stops.
However trying to get detail in the highlights that were more than 3 1/2 stops by deepning the highlights did not look good and there was a megenta cast in the highlight area (may be an issue with te di suite)
The spot metre on the camera reads 50 IRE only at 160 ASA.
Shooting at this ASA in nights was practically impossible. So I shot at 250 ASA. which meant i could shoot 1 1/2 stops under before i saw grain appearing. to note that this was the setting on the camera. The 'RAW' data is always daylight balanced at 320. so ideally the camera was over exposing.
The blue areas showed grain faster (like all other reviews!!!!!)
use a hot mirror or ir filter with anything more than ND3 (which I guess you will need as soon as you take the camera outdoors.
I also used shutter angle (shutter speed) changing to maintain a low FSTOP and depth of field. dont know whether that changed the sharpness of the image
i woudl have loved to have a diffusion filter series like a black promist starting from 1/8 to reduce the sharpness a little.
contary to a lot of rumours i did not have heating problems(although i had gel packs ready). make sure they switch off the camera if it is not being used for more than 5 mins
ALL in ALL it's a PD 170 capturing 4 k and having different FPS and shutted angle options.
Demand a wavefrom monitor and vectroscope if possible. The histogram never moves to the middle in the night and is always at the other end during the day.
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Subbaiah Kuttappa »

The apperture (gate) size for anamorphic is 22x16 mm for 35 mm cameras.
using the complete sensor too will not record the image fprmed by anamorphic lenses with 2x squeeze.
so like most S35 film methods the 2.35:1 ratio is obtained by cropping the super 35 full gate image. which is 1:85: 1
i guess the anamorphic lenses by red might have a 1.3x squeeze like hawk v lite lenses to use the complete sensor area for the image: so after unsqeezing the 1.78 image you will have a 2.35 image. BUt no ided whether you need to do the unsqueeze in di or change the projector that has only a 2X squeeze
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Re: Shooting with RED ONE : real life case

Post by Paramvir Singh »

anyone tested anamorphic on redOne?
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