At last i became a member of the union...never wanted to be..but situations was like...... that so had to give in to it.
BUT....why do we need a union card??? where dose it help?? IT DOSEN'T.
there are too many things right now which the union has to take care of....but the most imp one which i can see and feel is harmful for everybody is that...lot of outside technicians are working in india .. without proper knowledge and WITHOUT BEING A MEMBER OF SO CALLED UNION .
i hate to see this..and wonder WHY AM I PUSHED TO BE PART OF THE UNION??
what am i lacking skills...oh hell no i think all of us can do a much better job in the given conditions...
if not this.... then what?? what is it that...... all the industry going ga ga over some foreign technicians..be it a DOP,EDITOR, SOUND RECORDISTS..ANYTHING...??
this is what i have heard " If i go to Hollywood tomorrow to work then i will have to be a member of their union."
now if i have to be a member of their union... then i have to a citizen of that country also..isn't it?? which will take at least abt 5 to 6 years..and after that applying for the union card..who's gone do that??..i am not
but in here they come here on a travel visa.....work for abt 6 or 7 months and then go away....
can we stop this?? why are we letting this to happen to us ........
i really feel something shud be done abt this...
how?? i dont know....
when???? ......before its tooo late....!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by admin on Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:edited the subject to better reflect the context
What is the director's nationality of Lord of the Rings' director- New Zealandish
What is the director's nationality of Aliens 4- French
and My Blueberry Nights, Taiwanese (DOP French with Iranian origin)
2012, German
Wanted, Russian
Children of Men, Mexican
Bad Lieutenant, German
Hotel Rwanda, Irish
The Happening, American Indian origin
Mysterious Skin, American Chinese origin
Indiana Jones..., American Romanian origin
and Renoir, Lubitsch, Antonioni, Wenders, Bernard Bertolucci, David Cronenberg, Jodorowsky, Kitano, Fritz, Ang Lee, Sergio Leone, Jonas Mekas, Vincente Minnelli, Otto Preminger, Tsui Hark, John Woo, Paul Verhoeven, Peter Weir, Michael Winterbotom, Edward Yang...
What is the DOP's nationality of Easy Rider- Hungarian
the last 5 Tim Burton films, French
La vie en Rose (French film), Japanese
Apocalypse Now, Italian
Days of Heaven, Argentinian
...
The list could very very very very very very very very long.
Ask Resul Pookuty if he had any problem working on a British-financed film ?
Why aren't you complaining of Kazathanian female dancers sent her for dodgy reasons either on the lap of Khans or local politicians ?
Xenophobia
Fear of the Other
The Invasion has just started
First it will be Hollywood, then Musilms, then Jews, then North-Indians, then Communists, then Chai-walas, then chappals, then sponges...
Let's gas them all !
the Being has endless possibilities.
and
please let's respect Cinema without barriers
dear Pierre
I think you have misunderstood mandar's concerns.
and before writing anymore, allow me to apologise for being anonymous (even though the admin has asked to me reveal my identity) but some things I am going to say here may concern my career.
having said that, I completely agree with you, pierre. but what i say is 'may the best man win'
however this is what is not happening here in this industry with us. and the blame goes to us, and NOT to the 'phoren' crew.
what I mean is that we have a colonial hangover and blind faith in anything that is imported (even idols of Indian gods made in China)
What this means that sub standard 'imported crew' are getting work in India, at a higher pay than Indians, and with better privileges than locals. (when I say Indias/Locals, I also include YOU, since you are one of us, having studied with us and shared our meals)
when I say substandard 'imported crew' I mean people who dont deserve to have gotten the chance, but merely got them because they are 'imported'. I have no problems in someone brought a Darius Khondji to India or an Ang Lee or a Charleze Theron. But I have a problem when they, for the sake of marketing and publicity, get 'imported crew' so they can show off to their cleints (in advertising) and to the media/peers in films (imported DoP, imported Sound Engineer etc).
Allow me to give examples:
Zoya Akhtar's film (Luck By Chance) was shot by someone who, we all feel, messed up the film. was there a better suited/qualified local? surely, many. we make over 1000 movies and gazillions of commercials every year. Who suffered? the movie. Also I felt 'Rock On' was mediocre work and lots of locals could have done it better. Surely people like Santosh Sivan, Piyush Shah, Vikas Sivaraman, Chang, Ravi Chandran, Rajiv Ravi etc are all producing international quality work.
Mani Ratnam's 'Yuva's sound was again by an 'imported crew'. BAD SOUND. LOUSY. An actor's voice quality was different between shots of the same scene. Who suffered? the movie. Did we have better sound guys? of course? Resul was around. So were people like Nakul Kamte and many many others.
Another example, watch this comemrcial:
this was directed by an 'imported director'.
does it have ANYTHING that couldnt have been done by a local? (we know ONLY Ang Lee could have made a Broke Back Mountain)? its a very staid ordinary ad. But imported crew is sold to advertising clients and the production houses make more money on that. I would understand if they got a Baz Luhrman to direct one of these commercials for Nirma. But these unheard of people with medium/mediocre work? for what purpose? THATS THE PROBLEM.
As for your Kazakh Dancers: yes its unfair. But its also true that the local indian 'junior artisit' and 'extra dancers' neither have the grace or looks. I guess its a function of culture and economics. Most of these 'imported dancers' have rained in ballet/modern dance from childhood in perhaps state run schools. How many Indian schools accessible to the common girl have Ballet/Modern dance classes?
having said that, if you were Indian, and tried working abroad, in Australia/USA/Europe etc, you would know how closed the system is. Yes, once you make a name, (like you rightly pointed out, Resul, NOW) you would get a chance. OR if you were part of an exotica from india. If you were a snake charmer you would get a chance. Of course people like Rehman, Resul will get a lot of work now. But will Mandar? if he lands in LA with his reel, will a production house pimp him to an agency? I bet my cotton socks NO!
Removing Cinema Barriers should work both ways. Trade should be bi-lateral. And as always, may the BEST MAN WIN!
I would tend to agree with Pierre here.
Anyone has the prerogative to tell any story he or she wishes with whosoever they want, if they feel that the team they choose will be in sync with their vision and enhance it further.
But...
And it's a big BUT here...
What does one do, when the decision is not entire the storytellers.
Case in point... Whilst doing an ad film for an Indian 'Ready-to-eat' food product, the advertising agency in question insisted on a 'foreign DOP' for the film.
Now this, even before discussing anything with the director. The food styling, the shot design or any some such.
It is this ignorance that is dangerous.
And mind you, I am not for once questioning the 'foreign DOP's' abilities. He could be either of good, bad or ugly.
The point is the assumption being made here. Especially in Bollywood (yes that what I shall have to call it, despite disliking the term, given the narrow minded thought process that's been set in motion, that of - "foreign is better!"
The decisions taken (or rather thrust upon) are not educated but based on perception (that too without reason).
This is what one needs to stand up against.
Otherwise, there was no one could mouth "tum saala Indian Kutta log..." better than Bob Christo!
Think about it...
much love,
Vikram
i was once due to shoot a commercial for someone. a couple of days before the shoot the harrowed director calls me and apologizes and says the client insist on a 'foreign DoP'. He couldnt find one so he made do with our very own Chang. (he also later told me how Chang screamed at his assistants in chaste Marathi almost shocking the client out of his wits)
I wonder how many people have lost a paid day's work because of the clients'/agenicies' insistence on a 'foreign DoP/Director/Audiographer/Editor' etc without understanding the core film making process and allowing the filmaker/director to make an informed/emotional (i say emotional because more often than not, in a perfect case scenario people develop relationships at work which forms core teams: The Coen brothers and Roger Deakins, for example) choice.
no one is complaining about of cross fertilisation of talent. Talent, however is the keyword here, I guess.
lets get Ang Lee, Vittorio Storaro, Dariusz Khondji, Walter Murch to work on our commercials and features. No problem. But un-named people without so much as a proper showreel?
Again I say, if Vikram goes to LA will any LA production house pimp him with pomp and grandeur as a director? but our own production houses and clients do. thats sad.
The problem is with ourselves not the expat crew. WE chose them over ourselves because of our own prejudices. The Beatles discovered Ravi Shanker before we did. The west embraced Yoga before we could find it fashionable enough. The west awarded fame and fortune on Resul before we did so much.
Dear Stalker...
Aapke muh mein ghee shakkar!
(One can really wish now can't we... Production houses in LA pimping me as a director... Ha! Ha! Ha!)
As is my diploma was called - 'If wishes were horses' (that's the English title).
And in that list of yours, the most shameful being - We gave Satyajit Ray a 'Bharat Ratna' posthumously! AFTER he got a lifetime achievement award from the Academy!
PATHETIC!
i find myself agreeing with both pierre and somewhat with stalker. but, puhleez, stalker, can u stop saying 'may the best MAN win'??!! there are women too out here, u know, who work equally hard! i'll give u benefit of doubt and assume that u mean Person when u say Man, but still... let's stay on the fairer side of things!
which also brings up the question of poor women representation in the film crew.
anyway, yes Vikram, high chance any production house/agency will give you work in LA or Paris or Madrid or Sydney or wherever. Or give me or one of us. Unless we are
a) producing Oriental Exotica (remember Ayesha Dharker/Rehman/Bombay Dreams or something OR Pandit Ravi Shanker or some other Indian 'exotica'?)
b) winning an OSCAR or some internationally recognised award (Resul/Rehman/Anil Kapoor etc)
anyway, I can see that most people are either afraid of commenting on this thread for the fear of being wrongly labelled 'Xenophobic' (they should read about the British and American film Unions) OR as is fashionable, embrace a philosophy of a 'laissez faire' economy (which itself has been repeatedly proven wrong, because one of its basic premises is that Humans are 'fair' in their dealings, which we all know isnt correct. Look at the global financial meltdown, for example)
So i end my role in this thread now. thank you all for your time.
uuhhh yo guys i hate to rain in on your parade but before we start throwing any of the "phoreners" anywhere it would be much advised to sort out the differences within our own country. Namely the fact that one of us and by that i mean people working in bombay sorry mumbai cannot go and work down south without having a south union card which by the way is a much more expensive proposition than it is in mumbai, this even though they (technicians and artists from the south) can come and work here without any problems without joining any of the mumbai unions. Not that i am a great fan of any of the unions (Im not a member). So maybe after we sort out our own internal issues we can deal with the issue of the "phoren Crew". I was informed a fair while ago (abt a year back) that of the many "phoren" DOP's only one had a valid work visa the rest of them were indeed here on a tourist visa.
so i guess its a good idea then to start with the idea of any1 from this country to be able to work anywhere he so wishes without the discrimination of unions and or politicians. Hows that for a start... Think our unions can handle that..
good point bakul. i have heard our unions raise money for 'parties' and 'running websites'.
anyway, furthering the point of 'phoreners' working here and why we are not working there, there is a fantastic example: Ben Kingsley.
Kingsley was born Krishna Pandit Bhanji in Snainton, near Scarborough, Yorkshire, England, the son of Annalyna Mary (née Goodman), an actress and model, and Rahimtulla Harji Bhanji, a medical doctor. ...At about this time, he changed his name from Krishna Bhanji to Ben Kingsley, fearing that a foreign name would hamper his career.
when I say substandard 'imported crew' I mean people who dont deserve to have gotten the chance, but merely got them because they are 'imported'. I have no problems in someone brought a Darius Khondji to India or an Ang Lee or a Charleze Theron.
I say this smacks of discrimination. Why band others if Ang Lee or Chralize Theron can work over here without a union card? Is'nt that worse than what is happening right now?
As to what Pierre has to say... Resul's work in slumdog was in INDIA. He did not go to to any other country to work on that film. He has to take a union membership to work in a foreign country and this is a fact. I for one am absolutely against any foreign crew working in india without proper union membership. Why should they snatch work from our people? India has enough people who are as talented if not more. I say the unions must ban any foreigners from working in films over and must insist on indian crew. This happens in a lot of countries abroad. Why should we be the ones who get butt fucked all the while?
I would have understood if there was a dearth of talent or manpower in this country; but we have neither. I know of plenty of cases where a shoot was stopped because one of the crew members did not have the union card. Why then are shoots with foreign crew not stopped?... Something has to be done... and NOW.
skills...oh hell no i think all of us can do a much better job in the given conditions...
